They are turning the U.S. into a surveillance state but its psychologically darker than this article has stated. The immigration issue is a ruse to stir up the U.S. citizens to accept more surveillance per the political "anger" of "get the foreign invaders out of here" type people. This has to be propagated on the news in order to persuade public opinion to bring in the digital identities and digital monetary system with implanted chips that work in unison based on body movements to mine their cryptocurrency.
Check Microsofts'...ie Bill Gates 20200666 patent for exactely that. Trump, at a rally has said he will implement the biometric entry/exit visa tracking system, for land, sea & air.
The goals of all these nations working together come directely from the World Economic Forum.
Klaus Shwab-ass has said the governments will be stakeholders in the giant tech companies. The tech companies have peoples data that governments want but dont have "user-friendly" welcome into peoples data as the deceptive tech companies do. Thats why you've seen Elon Musk, Larry Ellison, Sam Altman and Trump together in photos recentely planning the technocracy transition. Trump also making plans with Palantir which
already targets civilians in Gaza for air strikes.
So, what "they" want is total U.S. surveillance on all citizens not just foreigners. Drones will fly and identify "enemies of the nation" based on the U.S. governments twisted interpretations of whats right or wrong. They want to completely control and enslave you to an AI false god that will determine what you can buy, when you can go outside, where you can or cant go, what you can or cant do. A digital slave system. An outside prison but a "Smart City" in their words.
One assumption for such theories that is very important and very wrong is that the elite would cooperate with each other long enough and work on the same goals long term. Newest very public instance is Elon breaking with Trump. Of course such people are able to create strategic partnerships, but it's not like their incentives and motives are aligned.
It's a group of people with relatively many narcissistic and sociopathic people. They would rather eat each other alive than deeply cooperate.
There is no coherent "they" that would act to achieve some mid/long term goal together.
There is more to say about what parent wrote, but I wanted to add this aspect because I feel like it often get overlooked.
The problem is that people become used to the conditions they are living in, so the disaster is always in the future. People expect some sharp, intolerable transition.
Traveling abroad to asian countries it becomes immediately and shockingly clear how intolerable surveillance really can be. Between having your face and fingerprints scanned on a pirated windows xp pc to being fined heavily for going 51 kph in 50 zone it can be hard to imagine how much worse it can get from there, but it can.
On the other hand, as an American citizen living in Asia after spending most of my life in the USA, I like not getting mugged, assaulted, or run over by a speeding car.
I think you refer to China, or maybe Japan or Singapore. Not every country in Asia has advanced surveillance. The UK, Canada, and America have advanced the same technology but use it in other ways, which is why American police can’t make the subways or roads safe like the Japanese have, but monitor your social media posts and emails for signs of terrorism and political dissent.
Entering Japan there's a nice friendly line marked "Japanese" where everyone just passes in smoothly, and a grim dystopian line marked "Foreigner" at which your fingerprints and photo are taken before you're allowed entry. It's like humans vs. fookin' prawns in District 9. And this is Japan, one of the more liberal East Asian states.
Japanese businesses often refuse foreigners outright, or, like famed cheap-goods retailer Don Quijote, have notices posted indicating they can demand you cough up your passport at any time, so have it ready before entering.
At least the customs agents were friendly, in that Japanese way, even as they asked me probing questions like why I flew in from Helsinki on Finnair instead of over the Pacific on an American airline. Though they seemed content with my answer ("because it was cheaper").
You gave some exaggerations and misinterpretations.
Every country has separate immigration lines for citizens and foreigners. Immigration officials have access to national databases but not those of other countries. Like the USA and most other countries Japan has biometric data associated with passports, but only has direct access to match that for Japanese passports. Perhaps you have never experienced the “dystopian” foreigner entry process in the USA or your own country.
Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop. If you want to get the VAT refunded — a privilege many countries extend to foreign tourists — you can do that by showing you have a tourist visa. Essentially duty-free shopping extended out of the airport. The USA does not have a national VAT so no American store needs a passport to refund taxes.
Japanese businesses do sometimes exclude foreigners, mainly because they don’t have multilingual staff, but also because they want to reserve some places for Japanese and not have tourists overrun every locals restaurant and bar.
Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals. Annoying perhaps but hardly a Japanese thing. Part of the job description. You have no right to enter a foreign country, the immigration officers get to determine that.
> Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop.
The one I visited had just such a sign posted at the entrance.
> Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals.
I've never been asked such questions by customs in Australia, Canada, France, or the UK. The only ones who gave me a harder time were the American customs officials, as I was re-entering my own fucking country from Canada. They couldn't even be bothered to smile or act polite.
For good or ill, Japanese trust of foreigners is much lower than in the Western world. Maybe they loosened up a bit since 2011 but they're tightening back up now what with idiot streamers gaijin-smashing into construction sites and the like. Racism and open discrimination against people who even look foreign is higher than what a Canadian or Brit would be used to. Given that the Japanese are more interested in preserving their culture against foreign influence than the Brits or Canadians, it makes sense, yes. But it still felt dystopian at the point of entry. Once I'd cleared that hurdle, though, I had a great time in Japan and most of the people I met were pretty laid back.
To be fair, getting fingerprints and photo taken is a standard nowadays for many countries in the world, especially if you need to apply for a visa. My guess would be that this is a norm for the majority of people not from the first-world countries. I personally had to do that for Canada, Japan, and EU
I flew through the EU on my way into Japan and didn't have to get printed. The bored Parisian customs guy didn't even stamp my passport properly... which caused a bit of trouble when I landed in Helsinki. But no one, not even the Finns, demanded my fingerprints.
Of course, this was 2011, which was forever ago in national-security time.
Finland along with most of the rest of western Europe will roll out biometric identification ( fingerprints and photos) as part of the delayed ETIAS program, scheduled for this year.
Come on. It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad. To people who live in a police state you eventually get used to such things.
For example i really believe that traffic enforcement cameras are state oppression. They create more human suffering then they prevent. it's just that people are used to it so they don't protest.
> It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad
What, like actually enforcing laws? I live in the US and I would love a way to rein in traffic. Enforcing traffic laws is literally the best thing the police do.
I asked because it wasn’t blindingly obvious, and I genuinely want to understand.
Taking the traffic enforcement then - we’re talking about a dangerous piece of machinery that you’re allowed to operate in a public place under certain conditions in order to reduce the risk to others. One of those conditions is speed. It seems blindingly obvious to me that if a society agrees those conditions it should also enforce them?
Yes but speed cameras quickly turn into a revenue source for greedy councils. It's hard to tell how much they actually care about speeding offences and doing what they think they can get away with.
As a general rule these things start with sincere intentions but often devolve into cynical exploitation. So if you weigh the benefits of speed cameras against the suffering they cause i think you would find they aren't a good thing.
Getting to your original question i think many people don't trust that their face and fingerprint scans will be used in a way that would be in the publics interest. Its more likely that the authorities would find a way to use that data against you.
How exactly do you weigh the “suffering” — I would call it inconvenience or annoyance — of traffic fines against bodily harm caused by dangerous drivers? A fine versus a hospital stay or worse?
I'm honestly not sure what the balance is, but there is a point where one bad accident is worth less then many speeding tickets. It's obvious when you think about it- otherwise the speed limit would be 20 mph everywhere.
I'm really not sure where and how you draw the line but i do think we should err on the side of less surveillance. That's the predominant view on hn.
That's hardly true. I'm pretty far from the doge end of the spectrum, but I want as little surveillance as possible (ideally: only via court order).
You need only read about what impact a simple census question about religious affiliation had in the 1930s/40s to realize that information about yourself can very quickly be used for very dark purposes.
We've already seen stories about red states using data from social media and phone apps to target women who may have gotten abortions.
I can think of plenty of not so great ways red light camera data can be (and probably already is being) used for things completely outside the scope of merely automating speeding and red light crossing tickets.
> Yes but speed cameras quickly turn into a revenue source for greedy councils.
This has been widely documented for red light cameras. Red light cameras are politically much easier because approximately nobody thinks blatantly running red light is ever acceptable (vs. speed limits which have a wide range of debate on what the correct number should be).
So, towns install red light cameras. And initially, it's good! Then when the town gets used to the revenue stream, they want more money. How to get more? They shorten the yellow light more and more and more so they can artificially increase the number of people "running the red light". What started as a good plan to punish people who blatantly run the light, becomes a gotcha trick programmed to maximize revenue at the cost of safety (rear end accidents increase substantially after people become trained to panic brake at yellow lights due to the excessively short time).
> It's been one for at least the last twenty years.
Ubiquitous smartphones have racheted this up to a level before unimaginable.
Imagine saying in 1990 that in 2025 everyone will be carrying a locator device which tracks their whereabouts 24/7 and who they associate with and message with.
I read that article this morning, that was also my reaction.
Do they not remember Snowden?
Although the level of accessing "social media" posts, and internal government docs, for use in persecution of an individual is rising to new levels with The Cheato administration.
They are turning the U.S. into a surveillance state but its psychologically darker than this article has stated. The immigration issue is a ruse to stir up the U.S. citizens to accept more surveillance per the political "anger" of "get the foreign invaders out of here" type people. This has to be propagated on the news in order to persuade public opinion to bring in the digital identities and digital monetary system with implanted chips that work in unison based on body movements to mine their cryptocurrency.
Check Microsofts'...ie Bill Gates 20200666 patent for exactely that. Trump, at a rally has said he will implement the biometric entry/exit visa tracking system, for land, sea & air.
The goals of all these nations working together come directely from the World Economic Forum.
Klaus Shwab-ass has said the governments will be stakeholders in the giant tech companies. The tech companies have peoples data that governments want but dont have "user-friendly" welcome into peoples data as the deceptive tech companies do. Thats why you've seen Elon Musk, Larry Ellison, Sam Altman and Palantir.
Palantir AI already targets civilians in Gaza for air strikes.
So, what "they" want is total U.S. surveillance on all citizens not just foreigners. Drones will fly and identify "enemies of the nation" based on the U.S. governments twisted interpretations of whats right or wrong. They want to completely control and enslave you to an AI false god that will determine what you can buy, when you can go outside, where you can or cant go, what you can or cant do. A digital slave system. An outside prison but a "Smart City" in their words.
I get why large scale surveillance technology is an evil thing but what i don't understand is this articles fixation on protecting immigrants.
It's the duty of a government to protect their countries borders. If individuals will bring a negative benefit to the country then they must be sent away. I don't know why that should be controversial but it's something that the Biden administration and the Uk both struggle with.
I've noticed it's a common tactic, apparently to get the left motivated? But yes, I think it is an odd one in the general.
In this case however, el pais, with their largest audience being in latin america, is probably honestly concerned about how migrants are being treated by the trump admin.
With all due respect, communication of non-trivial ideas is incredibly hard. And if the recipient is not capable of paying sufficient attention or understanding the message in its entirety, it’s not their fault, it’s sender failing to captivate their attention (compared to everyone else out there) or conveying the idea in its entirety (that is, why it’s important to them as well).
That is, don’t call people “dumb” just because they failed to heed the warnings. At the very least, that’s not helping in any meaningful way.
The goals of all these nations working together come directely from the World Economic Forum. Klaus Shwab-ass has said the governments will be stakeholders in the giant tech companies. The tech companies have peoples data that governments want but dont have "user-friendly" welcome into peoples data as the deceptive tech companies do. Thats why you've seen Elon Musk, Larry Ellison, Sam Altman and Trump together in photos recentely planning the technocracy transition. Trump also making plans with Palantir which already targets civilians in Gaza for air strikes.
So, what "they" want is total U.S. surveillance on all citizens not just foreigners. Drones will fly and identify "enemies of the nation" based on the U.S. governments twisted interpretations of whats right or wrong. They want to completely control and enslave you to an AI false god that will determine what you can buy, when you can go outside, where you can or cant go, what you can or cant do. A digital slave system. An outside prison but a "Smart City" in their words.
It's a group of people with relatively many narcissistic and sociopathic people. They would rather eat each other alive than deeply cooperate.
There is no coherent "they" that would act to achieve some mid/long term goal together.
There is more to say about what parent wrote, but I wanted to add this aspect because I feel like it often get overlooked.
It's been one for at least the last twenty years.
I think you refer to China, or maybe Japan or Singapore. Not every country in Asia has advanced surveillance. The UK, Canada, and America have advanced the same technology but use it in other ways, which is why American police can’t make the subways or roads safe like the Japanese have, but monitor your social media posts and emails for signs of terrorism and political dissent.
Japanese businesses often refuse foreigners outright, or, like famed cheap-goods retailer Don Quijote, have notices posted indicating they can demand you cough up your passport at any time, so have it ready before entering.
At least the customs agents were friendly, in that Japanese way, even as they asked me probing questions like why I flew in from Helsinki on Finnair instead of over the Pacific on an American airline. Though they seemed content with my answer ("because it was cheaper").
Every country has separate immigration lines for citizens and foreigners. Immigration officials have access to national databases but not those of other countries. Like the USA and most other countries Japan has biometric data associated with passports, but only has direct access to match that for Japanese passports. Perhaps you have never experienced the “dystopian” foreigner entry process in the USA or your own country.
Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop. If you want to get the VAT refunded — a privilege many countries extend to foreign tourists — you can do that by showing you have a tourist visa. Essentially duty-free shopping extended out of the airport. The USA does not have a national VAT so no American store needs a passport to refund taxes.
Japanese businesses do sometimes exclude foreigners, mainly because they don’t have multilingual staff, but also because they want to reserve some places for Japanese and not have tourists overrun every locals restaurant and bar.
Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals. Annoying perhaps but hardly a Japanese thing. Part of the job description. You have no right to enter a foreign country, the immigration officers get to determine that.
The one I visited had just such a sign posted at the entrance.
> Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals.
I've never been asked such questions by customs in Australia, Canada, France, or the UK. The only ones who gave me a harder time were the American customs officials, as I was re-entering my own fucking country from Canada. They couldn't even be bothered to smile or act polite.
For good or ill, Japanese trust of foreigners is much lower than in the Western world. Maybe they loosened up a bit since 2011 but they're tightening back up now what with idiot streamers gaijin-smashing into construction sites and the like. Racism and open discrimination against people who even look foreign is higher than what a Canadian or Brit would be used to. Given that the Japanese are more interested in preserving their culture against foreign influence than the Brits or Canadians, it makes sense, yes. But it still felt dystopian at the point of entry. Once I'd cleared that hurdle, though, I had a great time in Japan and most of the people I met were pretty laid back.
Of course, this was 2011, which was forever ago in national-security time.
For example i really believe that traffic enforcement cameras are state oppression. They create more human suffering then they prevent. it's just that people are used to it so they don't protest.
What, like actually enforcing laws? I live in the US and I would love a way to rein in traffic. Enforcing traffic laws is literally the best thing the police do.
Taking the traffic enforcement then - we’re talking about a dangerous piece of machinery that you’re allowed to operate in a public place under certain conditions in order to reduce the risk to others. One of those conditions is speed. It seems blindingly obvious to me that if a society agrees those conditions it should also enforce them?
As a general rule these things start with sincere intentions but often devolve into cynical exploitation. So if you weigh the benefits of speed cameras against the suffering they cause i think you would find they aren't a good thing.
Getting to your original question i think many people don't trust that their face and fingerprint scans will be used in a way that would be in the publics interest. Its more likely that the authorities would find a way to use that data against you.
I'm really not sure where and how you draw the line but i do think we should err on the side of less surveillance. That's the predominant view on hn.
Only in the doge side of HN
> I'm honestly not sure what the balance is, but there is a point where one bad accident is worth less then many speeding tickets.
No amount of speeding tickets is worth one kid killed by a drunk driver.
> Only in the doge side of HN
That's hardly true. I'm pretty far from the doge end of the spectrum, but I want as little surveillance as possible (ideally: only via court order).
You need only read about what impact a simple census question about religious affiliation had in the 1930s/40s to realize that information about yourself can very quickly be used for very dark purposes.
We've already seen stories about red states using data from social media and phone apps to target women who may have gotten abortions.
I can think of plenty of not so great ways red light camera data can be (and probably already is being) used for things completely outside the scope of merely automating speeding and red light crossing tickets.
This has been widely documented for red light cameras. Red light cameras are politically much easier because approximately nobody thinks blatantly running red light is ever acceptable (vs. speed limits which have a wide range of debate on what the correct number should be).
So, towns install red light cameras. And initially, it's good! Then when the town gets used to the revenue stream, they want more money. How to get more? They shorten the yellow light more and more and more so they can artificially increase the number of people "running the red light". What started as a good plan to punish people who blatantly run the light, becomes a gotcha trick programmed to maximize revenue at the cost of safety (rear end accidents increase substantially after people become trained to panic brake at yellow lights due to the excessively short time).
Ubiquitous smartphones have racheted this up to a level before unimaginable.
Imagine saying in 1990 that in 2025 everyone will be carrying a locator device which tracks their whereabouts 24/7 and who they associate with and message with.
Do they not remember Snowden?
Although the level of accessing "social media" posts, and internal government docs, for use in persecution of an individual is rising to new levels with The Cheato administration.
It's the duty of a government to protect their countries borders. If individuals will bring a negative benefit to the country then they must be sent away. I don't know why that should be controversial but it's something that the Biden administration and the Uk both struggle with.
In this case however, el pais, with their largest audience being in latin america, is probably honestly concerned about how migrants are being treated by the trump admin.
That is, don’t call people “dumb” just because they failed to heed the warnings. At the very least, that’s not helping in any meaningful way.