I never connect my smart TVs to the network, I just plug in my Apple TV and move on. It's frustrating because it takes longer to turn these devices on than it should because of all the additional overhead I don't want or need. I wish someone would make a painless gadget to flash the software with dumber software that loads instantly.
They're also cheaper because they're subsidized. I did the same thing with a FireTV but understood the extra crap they want to boot and use is part of why they're so cheap, they're hoping for information to sell or puchases they can monetize.
I've got a Sony TV with Google TV (not connected to internet) that turns on pretty quickly.
If it's going from a cold boot e.g. where it was unplugged or if it's doing a full reboot it takes a bit longer and shows a splash screen, but if it's turning on from a regular "off" state it takes about the same amount of time as the rest of my dumb screens and goes directly to the last used input.
Yeah, I don't connect my TV to WiFi at all; as long as TVs have HDMI ports I'll just use an Nvidia Shield TV (or something similar). If I do that I have access to more apps, a snappier interface, and it's easier to upgrade if I need to later.
I've looked into flashing it to use a dumber firmware, but it got into technical documentation that I don't really understand really quickly. I haven't looked into it since I got a Claude Code membership though, so it might be worth revisiting with AI assistance.
Same here! none of my home Tvs, most LG and Samsung, have ever seen w Wifi password. Always putting firestick on it and call it a day. At least firestick I can unplug throw away, God only knows what updates TV does that I obviously cannot revert.
> Always putting firestick on it and call it a day.
Aren't you just letting amazon collect and monetize your viewing habits while allowing them to push ads at you? Avoiding ads and data collection are the reasons I'd want to leave my TV offline in the first place.
This presumes that, now or later, there won't be an on-screen message that can't be dismissed saying "Sign in to a Walmart account to enable all TV features."
There's plenty of ways they can interfere with attempts to use the TV in "dumb" mode. Heck it could refuse to show any video at all til you've signed in.
Yep. I bought a Samsung TV that I never even put online. It pops up with a half-screen display that lasts for 2 minutes every time I turn it on . Never again.
What is the half-screen display? On my Samsung S90D (new within the last year or so), I can set it to skip the "home" screen and go directly to the last input on power on. It works well.
A manufacturer can target multiple markets and make different choices for different markets.
The Samsung S90D (a 65" 4K model) you bought appears to sell for about $1000. Looking at Best Buy's site, you can also buy a Samsung 65" 4K TV for as little as $180 (model DU6900).
Yes, there's other differences. LED vs OLED etc. But at a glance they seem equivalent to a consumer...and one costs 5x more. The $1000 TV is targeting a market that expects more from their purchase and would potentially grate at a persistent sign-in notification. The <$200 TV is targeting a market that wants a big TV and hasn't thought much past that.
There's definitely a chance that on some models Samsung would be more aggressive about enabling smart features, because those models are expected to be subsidized by ads.
While all of that is certainly true, even the DU6900 has the "Start with Smart Hub Home" option that defaults to enabled but can be disabled according to its manual. I assume that's what OP is seeing; it's a common thing to want to disable on Samsung TVs.
But don't think people who can afford the more expensive TV are also more tech-savvy. Some just want a nicer TV. Also, they are a much more lucrative target market than people who cannot afford the nicer TV.
Heh, I really almost did. It started a big fight with the wife, and I lost the battle quickly. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I'd fought that fight.
Samsung is top of my list of companies to never buy from.
Except SSDs, I guess. Would be nice if I could meaningfully reject all products from a given company. I'm sure they'll someday cram ads and spyware into those also.
Pi-Hole sped up my Samsung home and menu screens tremendously. I use something like this list [0]. The growing size of the list itself is a testament to the enshittification of Smart TVs.
I wonder if the SmartTV blocklist change history and size of commits could tell a historical story of how things have evolved? I'm aware that DoH makes this approach less and less viable ... but for my existing TVs it still seems to work fine as long as I'm careful not to blindly update.
Is there any kind of “hook up” on wholesale large dumb displays?
I know I’m preaching to the choir, but I just want a giant dumb display from my Apple TV. I vaguely remember someone posting a link to tvs restaurants use but I don’t remember exactly what or if it was what I’m looking for.
I wonder about this every time I see a smart TV-related thread on HN. I recently purchased an LG OLED (C5 48") because my old TV died so I'll finally comment. As others have said, just don't connect it to the internet. But you knew this already, so I'll provide my anecdote on the experience of this since I wondered the same thing for years before getting this TV.
When the TV is never connected to internet, and you use a single HDMI source like me, the TV acts completely like a dumb TV. It gets turned on via my AppleTV remote and displays the picture 1-2 seconds later. No LG logo (I disabled this), and no smart interface shown whatsoever.
If you want to change settings, you can display the settings interface via LG remote control and it generally acts like a dumb TV (not blocking the entire screen, so you can adjust picture quality and see the result as expected).
I've had the TV for about two months and never been asked to update it or shown any ad. The only time I've ever seen the smart fullscreen interface is when you unplug a live HDMI source and the TV detects that nothing is there. (If you turn the source off, it tells the TV to turn itself off as well.)
Hope this helps since it's a lot easier to buy a nice smart TV and do it this way than find a truly dumb commercial panel.
Most are also larger, heavier, with higher power consumption, and sometimes uncomfortably high minimum brightness. They rarely use the same panels as retail models because they have to support different operating conditions like extreme temperatures and 24/7 operation.
> the cost was double because the target market is "ad agencies" or whatever.
A TV capable of operating in those conditions has to be more expensive or else it'll need replacing twice as often and cost even more long term. Remember when Tesla used bog standard laptop screens in their dash because they were cheaper than automotive grade, leading to high failure rate?
This makes me wonder if my local McDonalds, which has three big screens mounted vertically in the drive-thru, ended up with not the commercial grade ones. They’re cooking in the sun in a hot climate all day, so they fail and turn into flickery messes, and it seems like they’re on a cycle of roughly 3 months newly-replaced & working, 1 year flickering.
I wonder if a "woot" style service could work. If 10K like-minded consumers made a group-buy every 2-3 years, a high-end panel vendor might be willing to provision a new SKU with a few firmware tweaks.
For a while, Costco had a reputation as the place where you could buy a TV and be confident that it was usable as a "dumb" TV. The rumor (unconfirmed as far as I know) was that, among the customizations that manufacturers would make for retailer-specific models, the Costco ones included firmware tweaks to pull back on requirements for things like mandatory connectivity, account creation and the like.
I'm not sure how true any of that is, but in any case Costco still has a reputation as a place where it's easy to return a TV, and they pay attention to the stated reason for return.
Just use any TV but don't log into your WiFi or connect an Ethernet cable. It sounds like that won't work with these Vizio TVs, but they're likely junk anyway. This is what I do with my Sony and LG TVs in my house and they work fine as dumb displays attached to my AppleTV box.
I've said it before on HN, but I just want a somewhat trustworthy group to develop "DUMB" certification. I think enough people would pay extra for a certified DUMB TV for it to be worthwile. "Don't Upload My Bits"
Somehow these dumb displays always seem to be cheaper than the smart ones. For some mysterious reason all the chips and stuff to needed run an OS have a negative cost.
"It will not let you do anything until you download the app on your phone, make an account, and log in on the TV. You cant just change it to HDMI 1 and use a Firestick. I set it up with a throw away email, then deleted the app, and took the TV off of the WiFi."
I've got a Roku on a TV in a spare room because it's the cheapest way to add airplay to a tv - I have it plugged in to a "smart" power bar that only provides power to the roku when the TV is turned on, so at least for the 99% of the time that the TV isn't turned on the roku isn't spamming my network.
Can you even buy 'just a screen'? We have huge (100"+) screens in the office, they cost A LOT. full of spam, apps, ads, popups. It doesnt even swithc to hdmi or what ever you input automatically, you need to select the screen mode orso.
The local electronics chain has 50-100 different TV's. All are 'smart'.
I would be ok with classifying this as a crime against humanity. /s
But honestly, I've just given up. I don't watch tv or movies or stream anymore, because it's all the same bullshit
Sceptre used to sell dumb TVs but they seem to be exiting the marketplace. Computer monitors and digital signage may be your best bet. You'll have to save up for 'em but that was true of TV sets back in the day too.
Sceptre still has a bunch of dumb TVs on their site. I used to be all in on them, but I bought one that had the backlight go out after only two years, and their answer was "lol buy a new one"
We already live in Harrison Bergeron's world, for anyone forced to, say, watch the NBC broadcast of the Olympics' opening and closing ceremonies. "Don't go having unsanctioned thoughts about that artistry, or forgetting about our commercial sponsors!"
We would never force a user to watch a 15-second ad every 5 minutes.
We simply augment their content with a 15-second fully-immersive aesthetic and psychological experience which highlights the quality of our sponsor's product.
Filtering ads outright would never happen. They'd create a market where the device would replace the ads you see or hear with the ads of the highest bidder, and then insert new ads on top of that.
A lot of people do their grocery shopping at Walmart (even if you don't). This positions Walmart as being able to offer discounts for food and other daily necessities to people right on their TV. People are going to like this-especially the cohort that would buy a cheap TV at Walmart. They're going to really like saving a few dollars on groceries or gas. Not to mention Walmart can now offer perks through the TV to its millions of employees. They're going to like it too.
Walmart is one of the most litigated companies ever, and probably has 10+ active lawsuits against it at any given time. So if they're getting into this, they're fairly sure it will work legally now and in the future.
The battle against personal-data-collection by default on TVs is probably lost at this point. It's over. Non-smart TVs will probably become specialized, super-expensive corporate-class expenses out of reach of most people before too long.
Projectors are capable of creating a big image on a wall like a TV, and while it's not as bright, it comes with much less privacy invasion, and is also portable. That's where I'm likely spending my future TV dollars until those gets caught up in this as well.
Great point! My knee-jerk reaction was that this is an intrusion and the enduser would be held hostage unless he/she gives up personal information to Walmart...and maybe that is the case for some, but some will surely benefit from the personal advertising and discounts. I do believe there should be a large, bright, unavoidable notice on the outside of the TV packaging stating that a Walmart account is required to use the TV.
And that will also benefit Walmart. They have Walmart+ which is their grocery delivery and in-store checkout app - which, if you've ever shopped at a busy Walmart near a city, both of those either enable you to avoid actually entering a Walmart or make it much quicker if you go in the store.
So that sticker will be a big "This TV requires a Walmart+ account - Sign up for Walmart+ and get free grocery delivery on orders over $30 and discounts at the self-checkout AND deals on streaming!" Their electronics department people will probably be trained to answer any questions and help people sign up on the app (if they're not already).
Brighter picture perhaps, but good luck being able to have anything resembling "actual black", best you'll get is dark gray.
Alternative solution that doesn't require worse picture quality, never hook up the TV to the internet. State of the art quality, none of the data collection.
I would bet five figures that within 5 years it will be commonplace for TVs to require an Internet connection in order to be used at all. One is ATSC 3.0 and its DRM encryption capabilities. The other scenario is probably be that, because the TV has pre-installed applications, then the TV has to record your age and register it upstream to comply with an age-verification law or interpretation thereof.
Agreed, you'd still need to darken the room for the best picture in any projector scenario, as the darkest black you can get is whatever the ambient light level is.
This actually seems better than before when a vizio account was required. At least now its a walmart account. If forced to choose, Id prefer a walmart account.
Of course, I would never buy this tv because of the requirement. I just buy dumb tvs and then stick an apple tv in front if the hdmi input.
This is why you never connected a "smart TV" to the internet.
If you disagree, do it and then run a Wireshark analysis.
The best option I have found, after trying them all is Apple TV.
Least about of telemetry, best picture quality, and very secure.
My solution to this problem has been to stop using TVs.
The last TV I actually enjoyed more than a PC/Mac display was a monster Panasonic plasma that had some serious practicality issues. I'd use it maybe 2-3 hours per week.
None of the other display technologies are that interesting to me. OLED gets close sometimes, but nothing matches the visceral urgency of a plasma panel clocked at 600hz. The noises it would make in bright scenes was crazy. You had to have a powerful sound system to cover up the semiconductor switching. And, that's kind of the entire point for me with a television. Go big or go home. Exhibition. If I just want to consume content without pissing off the neighbors, my MacBook/PC tends to provide a much better experience.
Recently I sourced two TVs for my elderly mom, who is never going to stream or use an app. I only looked at TVs which had their manuals online for review. I found two LGs which I could disable the app splash screen, and set to "select last input on power-up", which in her case is a cable box on HDMI-1. Don't know how long choices such as this will be available.
At my last job we bought a lot of Vizio tvs. We used them for conference rooms, hallway displays, etc. They were reasonably priced and had a good feature set needed.
They have been on a decline for years and this is a nail in the coffin.
There are business models that are dumb displays that you bring your own device to do conference stuff on whatever platform you wish. I'm not current with the pricing but they typically have good warranties.
They are insanely priced compared to disposable Vizios - renting a "real" display monitor for a conference would be $1000 or so (including the shipping, setup, return, usually involving large crates and trucks).
Buying a similar Vizio would be delivered by free by Walmart for $200, you just ignore the setup prompts, stick HDMI in, and give it to a nice hotel employee when done.
"A Walmart spokesperson confirmed to Ars Technica that Walmart accounts will be mandatory on “select new Vizio OS TVs” for owners to complete onboarding and to use smart TV features."
------
Some questions prospective buyers should ask:
1. Is "onboarding" necessary for this "Smart TV" to function as a "dumb screen"? i.e. Would a user need to get a Walmart account just to access video settings?
2. Does it inject ads or phone home to share screen captures from HDMI input?
3. Is not giving it access to WiFi sufficient, or does this thing have alternative ways of getting "updates"?
Kinda a wild idea I had never really considered, but absolutely a possibility: using a TV as a loss leader to sell ads.
Not sure if that's they're intent here, but I could easily see that becoming a thing (if it isn't already). And what better way to collect useful ad data on people than forcing them to create an account and then tracking their usage of the device.
Part of the reason that computer monitors are considerably more expensive. They're higher density, higher refresh rate panels, but they're also dumb so the sticker price has to cover the whole cost; no "netflix" button on the remote control contributing a few bucks or whatever.
This has been a thing for years, and so much so, that there's an entire TV with a dedicated second screen that shows you ads underneath your main screen: https://www.telly.com
Wow. I guess I'm surprised it took this long for banner ads to reach TVs.
I think I have my next startup idea: a physical ad blocker for this thing. We could even have multiple styles: yellow sticky note, duct tape, painters tape.
And if you want cheaper ones, we can print our own ads on your ad blocker!
that does not reflect my reality, for the things i have bought (or considered buying), no.
but i dont have hard data to back that up, so maybe i am wrong about the general case and the price increases are more local or specific to some other variable.
Amazon does in fact have their own brand TVs. I don't know if Google and Roku own a TV brand, but both provide the software that runs on TV's, and both require accounts and sell ads, so it comes out about even.
At the moment, my strategy is only to own older TVs that have no smart features. Eventually this strategy won't work. When that happens I'll either use a computer monitor or forgo TV altogether.
Reminds me of the insta go 360 3s cam I bought recently, have to install a mobile app on your phone to activate it. At least you can uninstall the app after.
The hardware is amazing, the software could improve in terms of how it deals with motion blur and surfaces like gravel.
Now that you mention it, DJI action cameras required the same thing (installing an app to activate the camera). I bought one, discovered this during setup, and promptly returned it and got a GoPro instead.
That's the point though. TVs like from TFA are preventing use when air gapped. As more manufacturers go this route, there will be fewer tvs that will allow that to work
I just got a LG G5 and I bought a $499 Mac Mini and a light up bluetooth keyboard with built in track pad. I never see the OS on my TV. Works fantastic.
This is a friendly reminder that your local e-waste collection site likely has no shortage of sufficiently dumb TVs available for the taking. (Check local regulations before taking anything without permission.)
This is why I have protonmail aliases, a burner second phone, and an x1 virtual cc. While I can't stop the enshittification, I can fight back by remaining pseudo anonymous and compartmentalize each service.
For now, we can vote with our wallets and avoid this crap. But, how long until the entire TV and display industry requires an account to tether you to each company in order to use their products?
I do that by never shopping at Walmart. I was bored one weekend, and went to a bunch of stores to compare prices. The Walmart near me did have somethings that were cheaper, but for the most part the prices were average with other stores. So I can honestly say for things I buy, Walmart is not worth it for me and it's not just the principle of not shopping at Walmart but it's a principal issue
The Onn TV sticks (Google TV based) are an incredible value (the middle of the line-up $25 version is the best deal currently) for a bloat/ad-free experience if you just install the free Projectivy launcher from the Play Store and uninstall any unused TV apps.
If it's going from a cold boot e.g. where it was unplugged or if it's doing a full reboot it takes a bit longer and shows a splash screen, but if it's turning on from a regular "off" state it takes about the same amount of time as the rest of my dumb screens and goes directly to the last used input.
I've looked into flashing it to use a dumber firmware, but it got into technical documentation that I don't really understand really quickly. I haven't looked into it since I got a Claude Code membership though, so it might be worth revisiting with AI assistance.
Aren't you just letting amazon collect and monetize your viewing habits while allowing them to push ads at you? Avoiding ads and data collection are the reasons I'd want to leave my TV offline in the first place.
Option B: use Amazon Prime Video to watch shows. Share your viewing habits with Amazon.
There's plenty of ways they can interfere with attempts to use the TV in "dumb" mode. Heck it could refuse to show any video at all til you've signed in.
The Samsung S90D (a 65" 4K model) you bought appears to sell for about $1000. Looking at Best Buy's site, you can also buy a Samsung 65" 4K TV for as little as $180 (model DU6900).
Yes, there's other differences. LED vs OLED etc. But at a glance they seem equivalent to a consumer...and one costs 5x more. The $1000 TV is targeting a market that expects more from their purchase and would potentially grate at a persistent sign-in notification. The <$200 TV is targeting a market that wants a big TV and hasn't thought much past that.
There's definitely a chance that on some models Samsung would be more aggressive about enabling smart features, because those models are expected to be subsidized by ads.
But don't think people who can afford the more expensive TV are also more tech-savvy. Some just want a nicer TV. Also, they are a much more lucrative target market than people who cannot afford the nicer TV.
Except SSDs, I guess. Would be nice if I could meaningfully reject all products from a given company. I'm sure they'll someday cram ads and spyware into those also.
I wonder if the SmartTV blocklist change history and size of commits could tell a historical story of how things have evolved? I'm aware that DoH makes this approach less and less viable ... but for my existing TVs it still seems to work fine as long as I'm careful not to blindly update.
[0] https://github.com/Perflyst/PiHoleBlocklist/blob/master/Smar...
I know I’m preaching to the choir, but I just want a giant dumb display from my Apple TV. I vaguely remember someone posting a link to tvs restaurants use but I don’t remember exactly what or if it was what I’m looking for.
(Sorry, being lazy here)
When the TV is never connected to internet, and you use a single HDMI source like me, the TV acts completely like a dumb TV. It gets turned on via my AppleTV remote and displays the picture 1-2 seconds later. No LG logo (I disabled this), and no smart interface shown whatsoever.
If you want to change settings, you can display the settings interface via LG remote control and it generally acts like a dumb TV (not blocking the entire screen, so you can adjust picture quality and see the result as expected).
I've had the TV for about two months and never been asked to update it or shown any ad. The only time I've ever seen the smart fullscreen interface is when you unplug a live HDMI source and the TV detects that nothing is there. (If you turn the source off, it tells the TV to turn itself off as well.)
Hope this helps since it's a lot easier to buy a nice smart TV and do it this way than find a truly dumb commercial panel.
A TV capable of operating in those conditions has to be more expensive or else it'll need replacing twice as often and cost even more long term. Remember when Tesla used bog standard laptop screens in their dash because they were cheaper than automotive grade, leading to high failure rate?
I just googled “dumb tv” and that brand showed up.
I'm not sure how true any of that is, but in any case Costco still has a reputation as a place where it's easy to return a TV, and they pay attention to the stated reason for return.
TV is just a screen. That is how I've used mine for the last 5+ years.
"It will not let you do anything until you download the app on your phone, make an account, and log in on the TV. You cant just change it to HDMI 1 and use a Firestick. I set it up with a throw away email, then deleted the app, and took the TV off of the WiFi."
The local electronics chain has 50-100 different TV's. All are 'smart'.
I would be ok with classifying this as a crime against humanity. /s
But honestly, I've just given up. I don't watch tv or movies or stream anymore, because it's all the same bullshit
Set the input to "HDMI-1" or whatever my Roku is connected to, and that's the last thing I touch on the TV remote.
2042: a $20 budget neural version hits the market but requires the user to watch a 15s ad every 5 minutes.
Every year after: interval decreases by a minute between ads
We simply augment their content with a 15-second fully-immersive aesthetic and psychological experience which highlights the quality of our sponsor's product.
Walmart is one of the most litigated companies ever, and probably has 10+ active lawsuits against it at any given time. So if they're getting into this, they're fairly sure it will work legally now and in the future.
The battle against personal-data-collection by default on TVs is probably lost at this point. It's over. Non-smart TVs will probably become specialized, super-expensive corporate-class expenses out of reach of most people before too long.
Projectors are capable of creating a big image on a wall like a TV, and while it's not as bright, it comes with much less privacy invasion, and is also portable. That's where I'm likely spending my future TV dollars until those gets caught up in this as well.
So that sticker will be a big "This TV requires a Walmart+ account - Sign up for Walmart+ and get free grocery delivery on orders over $30 and discounts at the self-checkout AND deals on streaming!" Their electronics department people will probably be trained to answer any questions and help people sign up on the app (if they're not already).
Walmart's pretty smart here.
Alternative solution that doesn't require worse picture quality, never hook up the TV to the internet. State of the art quality, none of the data collection.
What? If anyone truly believes that "People are going to like this", then just make it opt-in.
There is a reason it's not "opt-in". They know damn well people are NOT going to like it.
Of course, I would never buy this tv because of the requirement. I just buy dumb tvs and then stick an apple tv in front if the hdmi input.
The last TV I actually enjoyed more than a PC/Mac display was a monster Panasonic plasma that had some serious practicality issues. I'd use it maybe 2-3 hours per week.
None of the other display technologies are that interesting to me. OLED gets close sometimes, but nothing matches the visceral urgency of a plasma panel clocked at 600hz. The noises it would make in bright scenes was crazy. You had to have a powerful sound system to cover up the semiconductor switching. And, that's kind of the entire point for me with a television. Go big or go home. Exhibition. If I just want to consume content without pissing off the neighbors, my MacBook/PC tends to provide a much better experience.
They have been on a decline for years and this is a nail in the coffin.
Buying a similar Vizio would be delivered by free by Walmart for $200, you just ignore the setup prompts, stick HDMI in, and give it to a nice hotel employee when done.
------
Some questions prospective buyers should ask:
1. Is "onboarding" necessary for this "Smart TV" to function as a "dumb screen"? i.e. Would a user need to get a Walmart account just to access video settings?
2. Does it inject ads or phone home to share screen captures from HDMI input?
3. Is not giving it access to WiFi sufficient, or does this thing have alternative ways of getting "updates"?
If one wanted arguably less/different spyware, there's the Fire TV Stick 4K Max* $35, Apple TV 4K* $149, or Nvidia Shield TV Pro** for $199.
* Shows ads
** Shows ads that can be disabled by stopping Google/Android services
Not sure if that's they're intent here, but I could easily see that becoming a thing (if it isn't already). And what better way to collect useful ad data on people than forcing them to create an account and then tracking their usage of the device.
They did it with a computer to sell ISP services. Maybe they could sell a TV that requires streaming subscriptions?
https://www.theregister.com/2000/03/20/circuit_city_shuts_do...
This comment brought to you by Ovaltine.
I think I have my next startup idea: a physical ad blocker for this thing. We could even have multiple styles: yellow sticky note, duct tape, painters tape.
And if you want cheaper ones, we can print our own ads on your ad blocker!
That's Amazon's Fire TVs in a nutshell.
practically every other electronic has gone up in price like crazy, tvs have gone down.
Computers are cheaper. Phones are sort of cheaper. Headphones are cheaper.
Game systems cost more.
that does not reflect my reality, for the things i have bought (or considered buying), no.
but i dont have hard data to back that up, so maybe i am wrong about the general case and the price increases are more local or specific to some other variable.
(Seehttps://www.amazon.com/firetv for Amazon brand TVs)
All 3 make streaming devices (Stick, set-top box, etc).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_TV_(2010%E2%80%932014)
The hardware is amazing, the software could improve in terms of how it deals with motion blur and surfaces like gravel.
I skimmed TFA and what I consider "Smart TV features" are the things the Shield does: Apps, streaming, etc.
I see no indication that picture settings or HDMI features are disabled without an account.
I have a Samsung TV that is "smart" but I use a Shield and never touch my TV remote unless I need to adjust a picture setting.